Former Indonesian Trade Minister Mari Pangestu joins Keynes and Bown in a wide-ranging conversation about trade policy and negotiations in Asia. They chat about Indonesia’s episodes of trade liberalization, corruption, and the benefits of losing a WTO dispute. They discuss her experience negotiating ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) free trade agreements with both India and China, as well as the birth of the RCEP (Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership) idea. They also explain how Indonesia is caught between China and the United States in the ongoing trade war, and the negotiations Indonesia now faces with the Trump administration under the Generalized System of Preferences.